A Series of Interviews by Dr. Malcolm Beck
(Compiled in 1986 from conversations with Norman MacLeod, Agnes Williams, Wilfred MacDonald, and John Stewart)
Please take these notes exactly for what they are - "living history" at the best. They were made freehand during rambling conversations with the narrators. I could have made mistakes in writing down what they said. I made no effort to check this information back with them, nor have I checked what they said against other sources.
If there are errors be kind to your scribe and his informants. We did this more for the pleasure of good conversation and fellowship, than as an exercise in historical research.
Dr. Malcolm Beck (February 20th, 1986)
(Interviewed October 9th, 1958)
Norman was a life-long elder in the church at Murray River. He was born in 1867 and when this conversation was held, he was in his 92nd year. A fisherman-farmer, he was also a some-time lobster packer and served one term as M.L.A. for 6th Kings as a Conservative. He was my "mentor."
- M. Beck
Donald Crawford "was at our place." He held meetings at High Bank school and the Presbyterians there arranged a competing meeting to get ahead of him. Then they tried to lock him out. One of them, John MacLean, remarked in Gaelic that if he could find another man to stand with him like himself, he would knock the head off every Baptist on the Island, and Norman's Grandfather rejoined, "the trouble is Mr. MacLean, if you travelled the whole Island you wouldn't find as big a fool as yourself."
Crawford was a Presbyterian when he came to the Island, he may have heard the Haldanes while in Scotland, but we don't know. He started preaching in New Glasgow. He was one of the original British settlers. Started when he was a young man. Most of his work was in New Glasgow - but he felt an obligation to go to outlying districts, "and in those days there were no train."
Mr. Crawford asked my father if he could stay there and Father said, "No, I have four children in one bed now."
He stayed at Edward Gordons. He gave their daughter a lecture for telling him that, "that was enough writing paper for an old man."
He was editor of "the Christian" and I have an idea he was the first elder. This stopped printing "only lately" when the "Disciple" came out. Before that it had been moved to St. John.
Crawford preached full time. But no salary as it was "unscriptural" - they were taking whatever they'd give them. Crawford was a married man - "He was an old Scotchman and he was unyielding and pretty severe - he believed firmly in discipline."
A medical doctor and an L.L.D. A highly learned man. Was originally a Scotch Baptist. It was him who baptized Norman's grandfather. At that time he was coming over slowly to the New Testament position.
Scotch Baptists weren't predestinarian. They had a different lineage than the English Baptists who split off from the English Presbyterians on Lightfoot's vote. The English Presbyterians were called Puritans.
The Scotch Presbyterians immersed for 100 years before John Knox went to Geneva and became Calvinistic. The "Culdees" immersed - if the Presbyterians came from them it went on even longer than that. The Haldanes came from the Scotch Baptists originally.
He continued his practice of medicine but was more interested in religion and spent most of his time preaching. He would go out when called to the sick - he once treated Norman's sister, Mary Ann, who was going to Prince of Wales College. "He pretty near ate Mary Ann when he found out that she was the grandaughter of Norman MacLeod. 11 Mr. Knox said, "he was the strongest man on immersion I ever saw." Mary Ann is Clarence Nicolle's mother.
Cross Roads was his first church. Don't know if he was influenced by Campbell. (Did the Cross Roads church antedate the Campbells?) I hardly think so. Knox may have been influenced by the Christian Banner written in Coburg, Ontario by David Oliphant, who learned from Campbell. Norman's grandfather got this paper. He was baptized about i840 - this on an independent basis. Norman doesn't know if Dr. Knox went to a Church of Christ or not, "but there was a man my grandfather converted who went to Montague, and he could have done it• II
Knox started the church at South Lake too and I don't know if he started the church at Summerside or not, but I think he did. (Note from Malcolm Beck: He did not.)
Vere Beck (Malcolm Beck's grandfather) was the most unyielding man I ever spoke to and he was liable to think it was their fault they weren't coming (How mean?). I'm apt to think that good living Presbyterians and the like have their reasons - but your grandfather would take the side that they have the evidence presented to them and refute it. Norman remembers V. Beck and Mr, Motely debating on women in the church - Motely said there was no "male or female " - "It was a fierce one too."
John Knox came to Montague and established the church there. Norman thinks he died at Cross Roads.
Mr. Genge came to High Bank as a Baptist about 1890. He went down to the Methodist church in Cape Bear and began preaching Christian doctrine and converted a lot of them. This made a furor in the church which worked to his advantage.
Norman doesn't know what turned Genge from the Baptists. "But he went to Ch'town as a Christian and ended up a Presbyterian. I think because they could pay him more money. He died a Presbyterian. Before he was a Baptist he was a Methodist.
These people left the Methodist and Baptist church at the Cape and built a Church of Christ.
When Norman was 21, "I got in the mud." George Nelson Stevenson was preaching at Montague when I was 33 - Nov. 4th, 1900 - "the same age Jesus Christ was when he was crucified," and he baptized me. Vere Beck came out to the door after the meeting and said, "will you take the Christian Standard."
"Motely was the best speaker we ever had and this man (Kenneth T. Norris) we have now is the best minister we ever had. That is in my opinion". I enjoy every bit of him when I am listening to him on the radio."
Vere Beck was talking to his brothers and they were Becks you know and were very stubborn.
Before Genge only Vere Beck and the MacLeods in that area were Christian only. Vere converted Silas Sensibaugh and his wife (who was Vere's sister Eliza), Hector Penny, quite a few Cohoun's, Silas brother Mark's wife too. Silas Sensibaugh's family went with him and Wallace MacKay was courting Silas's daughter and there was a lot of the Beck in her and she converted him. Vere White - Horace's father, was one of the early converts under Genge. His wife was a Herring, Louis' aunt, and she went with him.
After a while Ben Beck came over - one of the last of Vere's brothers to do it. Louis Herring was courting Ben Beck's daughter and on account of that he found it easier to consider the matter. John Archie Munn was courting another of Ben Beck's daughters and Christie, John Archies second wife, followed her husband to the Church of Christ. Joshua Jordan was a convert of Genge's too and Johnny Stewart married one of his daughters.
Genge preached in Murray Harbour only a matter of a few months. He was the Baptist minister at High Bank but didn't go to the Cape as a Baptist. My father, R. W. Beck, says much of Genge's success was due to "Pa" Beck's cultivation of the field.
The only reason is it was too far to go to the Cape and we felt the need of a house of worship at the River. Norman and Lou Herring were the leaders of it. The men cut the lumber in the woods. Just one hired carpenter. Almost all the work was done with voluntary labor. Norman himself worked at it practically full-time. Lou Herring and his son, Harry put the finish on the inside.
(Interviewed 1959)
Agnes was a charter member of Central Christian Church. A spinster, who had a good sized house on the corner of Hillsborough and Sydney Streets and supported herself in most part by boarding students who attended Prince of Wales College. She was a sister to Harry Williams who was an elder at Central for many years.
- M. Beck
(What happened to cause the split in the church on Elm Ave?)
Elm Ave. is now named University Ave. The church met then in the building now occupied by Central T.V MNB, 1986 Elm Ave., was then called Great George St. There was a congregation there of about 50 members. This was the result of a meeting held by Ben Franklin.
Matthew Stevenson and the Harris brothers, William and Lemuel, became obsessed with British Israelism and made it a test of fellowship. A vote was held and the British Israelite group won by one vote. Agnes can remember the rump group walking down Great George St. with Harry (Williams) and Leonard (MacKay) and the other "kids" singing "We've won the victory." There was about a dozen of us.
They then formed a separate group, met first in the basement of the old Y.M.C.A. for 2 years, then in the old Guardian building (corner of Prince St & Grafton St.), then called the Philharmonic Hall, for two years.
Then Mr. Whiston came along and stimulated them into buying a lot. He was here two years. There were 75 to 100 members when he built the present church.
At the time of the split there was an Australian minister here, a Mr. Manifold, who was a lazy lad and the others found fault with him for not preaching British Israelism.
When the church was built Mr. Crawford came in and helped out. Alfred Dewar financed things pretty well - he was a financial wizard. John Kennedy was an elder, but a quiet sort who didn't edify the brethren - he and his sister bought the lot.
There were the Dewars, Charlie Chandler who was in the hardware business - his sons never came. Mr. MacLeod was an elder, Percy MacAusland is his nephew and adopted son. There were Godfreys too who later took up Russellism. Leonard MacKay, Harry Williams, Hammills too who also went Russellite. Bertie Stewart.
"When they got to have social ambitions they left the little church," "Things went swimmingly until the war (World War I) when a lot of people left and things were hard. Gradually the church came back,"
Mr. Floyd who was here about 1910 was a good man. Though the church got kind of tired of him during the war. It was at a pretty low ebb when Genge arrived on the scene. "He should have been on the stage." How long was he here? "Too long." Was a remarkable preacher·, dressed up and on the platform he could thrill you. But he didn't behave himself, was always an undercurrent of gossip. He and I didn't agree very well."
She doesn't think that Butchart's statement re the influence of "mutual ministry" on this split, had much if anything to do with it. It was the British Israelism.
But she did say that Matthew Stevenson was very fond of preaching and liked to do the most of it himself. He was a tinsmith and they called him, "The Tin Dipper." But this wasn't the problem, it was British Israelism.
John Stevenson from Paisley, Scotland and his six sons and six daughters started the church at New Glasgow, first in his barn. His sons then built the first church on his farm. His sons were preachers too. He had been Presbyterian, was going to be a minister. When he went looking for a boarding house in Edinborough or Glasgow, he went to a Mrs. Nesbitt's who met him at the door saying "laddie, can you pray?" He married her daughter.
These were Scotch Baptists. When he turned his father refused to support him further in school and sent him back to his weaving. No Campbell influence prior to his starting here. Started about the same time as the Cross Roads church, though Agnes thought Cross Roads was first.
One of John's sons, John, was a "lay preacher." "Donald Crawford was a New Glasgow institution when I was a youngster. He preached at New Glasgow for 50 years. Mr. Crawford had a class in New Glasgow and his successor was his student there."
John Stevenson emigrated in 1820. (This date can be checked on his tombstone in New Glasgow cemetery. Donald Crawford started with his cousin Alexander, who later became a Baptist. Donald Crawford started the church in Bradalbane too. He established the work in Greenmount and for a while was at East Point.
(Interviewed 1975)
Wilfrid has been an elder of the Montague church since he was a young man and I was a very young man. A successful farmer, a very thoughtful man. His son, John G. once described him to me as "an educated man." That he is, the best kind of "educated man" - a self-educated man. He did go to Prince of Wales College but I doubt that his education there was beyond Grade XII. A superb student of the Bible, especially of the Old Testament. He is the only person I know who has read Flavius Josephus for his personal pleasure.
- M. Beck
Came to P.E.I. in 1819, had been in River John before this. Presbyterian when he came here from the Island of Colonsay in Scotland. When here began to teach in Brudenell School which was on the site of Brudenell Cemetery (at the corner.) The rest of the Shaws on the Island don't recognize him.
Who influenced him to become a Baptist I don't know but I suspect it was Alexander Crawford who was an uncle to Donald Crawford. Alexander Crawford is credited with starting the Three Rivers church by Cyril Shaw ( a great-nephew to John) (the same group who met in Stafford Gordon's barn?) Not sure.
Cyril Shaw figures it was in the 1820's and probably the late 20's that John Shaw started preaching as a Baptist. He had had his experience and his call before this, which would fit in with his Presbyterian-Calvinistic background.
John Shaw refused to baptize a Donald MacDonald because he had not had an experience - this Donald MacDonald was likely Wilfrid's grandfather who had the same name, but whom he understands was baptized in Scotland and came to P.E.I. as a Baptist.
Before 1846 conflict began in the Three Rivers church over Restorationism. Shaw had been going to Cape Breton for preaching tours. He ran into some unremembered conflict in the Three Rivers congregation and they encouraged him to go to Cape Breton on an extended tour for some months to let this cool off. While he was away they asked John Knox to come preach for them. Knox, for reasons Wilfrid doesn't know, was then becoming a restorationist. He held a protracted meeting with 70 converts.
Then in 1846 they agreed to meet on alternate Sundays in the same building. This arrangement broke down. In '47 or '48 the Baptists moved to a building on Milton Fraser's farm and the Christians to a church on the road opposite Billie Dewar's home. In 1875 the Baptist church was built in Montague. In 1876 the Christian church built in Montague.
The Baptists were never strong - were only Shaw's relations and a few friends.
Rufus Stevenson was a young preacher here in 1876, when the church building was erected. His sister was married to Sheriff MacDonald - she had come to Montague to keep house for Rufus. Rufus then went to Bethany and graduated in 1879. (What relationship was he to the ''Tin Dipper?") He doesn't know.
Cyril Shaw, Herman Shaw and Aubrey Shaw were brothers, great nephews to John Shaw. Vernon Shaw (Bob Shaw's father) was a distant cousin to John Shaw.
He was from an island off the coast of Scotland, and was converted by the Haldanes before they became convicted over immersion. He was further taught by the Haldanes about immersion two years later and then went home and baptized his whole family. He later emigrated to P.E.I.
His contact with the Haldanes was before Alexander Campbell spent his year with them. But the Haldanes had preached at Thomas Campbell's church in Ireland before that. May '79 - Alexander, uncle to Donald, was converted by James Haldane when he preached in the Island of Arran.
Alexander Campbell, in 1807, was shipwrecked off the Island of Arran and through the Islanders he was referred to Greville Ewing in Glasgow and through him he met the Haldanes.
The Haldanes by then had been immersed but Ewing was still not of this persuasion, and it was with Ewing whom Campbell had his main fellowship. The Haldanes were not narrow minded and continued to support Ewing as their school master in Glasgow despite this difference.
Isaac - Errett was the son of an elder in the Haldanian church in New York state.
Alexander Crawford went to the Haldanian Bible College in Edinborough in 1807. He had not been baptized before this. Then he went back to Arran and baptized the rest of his family. (How long there?) Likely only one winter but I can't prove that.
In 1811 he emigrated to Yarmouth, N.S. but the Baptists there would not keep a Haldanian. He had 3 peculiarities they wouldn't accept: (a) Something to do with the ministry but the details I don't know; (b) weekly communion, (c) I can't recall.
He therefore moved to Tryon where he is buried.
In 1812 he first preached in Three Rivers. (Stafford Gordon told Malcolm Beck. that the first preaching was done in his grandfather's barn in Roseneath - the present site of the Brudenell Golf Club.) Though it can't be proven the building at Brudenell Cemetery was likely built there in 1812. This served both as school and church and was called the Three Rivers Meeting House.
The assumption is that -Alexander Crawford kept going there until his death in 1829.
Mr. Shaw became school teacher and preacher there in 1819, they had been in River John a few years before that. Parson Shaw was very Calvinistic. The Crawfords were likely Calvinistic too. Shaw was a very stern man. In George Dewar's book on "The Brothers Dewar" is a story about his falling into a difference with the congregation over his brother who stole a horse, etc. Wilfrid has not heard this story anywhere else.
Because of this he was sent on a calming down evangelistic series to Cape Breton. While he was there John Knox held meetings at Three Rivers and baptized 70 persons without even questioning the validity of their experience. The point being that this group was restorationist even before Knox.
(Interviewed 1974)
Mr. Stewart is a professor at St. Francis Xavier University, I think in political science. He served at least one term in the House of Commons as a Conservative. I have heard that he is now a senator. A bachelor, Shirley and I had this prolonged conversation with him one morning in his old farm home outside Antigonish.
- M. Beck
Mr. John Stewart's father was George Harvie Stewart from Cross Roads, P.E.1. - first lived on Dr. Lantz's farm in Southport. George Harvie's father was John Benjamin Stewart, 1816-1884, married to Elizabeth Dewar, 1832-1891 - his 2nd wife. He likely was first generation on the Island. George H. Stewart's brother, Henry Ward (born 1861) founded the Coburg St. church in Saint John. He left Coburg St. in 1899. Benjamin was from Perthshire - he was a Stewart and has no other Stewart relatives on the Island. These Stewarts were Roman Catholic in Scotland.
Another Benjamin who was a surveyor came here with him. He had no descendants. Likely Benjamin was Baptist when he came to the Island and later "Disciple."
Elizabeth Dewar was a sister to Catherine, who was the wife of John Knox. - his great aunt - "Auntie Knox".
In 1923 George Harvie left his farm and moved to John Knox's house which was where the Village Diner used to be in Southport. His mother was May Elizabeth MacGregor from Springfield, Antigonish Co., N.S. She is two generations from "Rob Roy" MacGregor. His sister Jessie never got along with his mother - he gave sister Knox a home - moved to Bayfield in '30 - his father stayed a Disciple. "It was very awkward".
John went to Anglican Sunday School till he read in catechism that other churches were heretics - then he went to a United Church Sunday School but John was baptized as a Baptist. His mother remained a Baptist.
His recollection of mother's and father's arguments: - the point of crunch was whether you were baptized as adult or not. (How do you relate this to your mother and father?) That they recognized that they were close on this but Father would say the Baptists put too much emphasis on the rite of baptism.
- that the Baptists had too much emphasis on the importance of baptism.
- Mother was more theologically inclined than Father.
- he will query his mother about this on a good day.
- (I see it other way around.) That rings a bell.
He remembers no anecdotes of his mother and father about John Knox.
He recommends Mrs. Lorne H. MacPherson, store owner in Southport, now owned by Joe, as a possible source of information.